Bristol church congregation votes in favor of gay, lesbian inclusion
BRISTOL — About two years ago, several members of the First Congregational Church in Bristol approached pastor Dan Randall with a big question: We have loved ones who are homosexual, they said, and we want to know where the church stands on the subject. Are they welcome? It was an interesting question, recalls the pastor. “If a gay couple came and sat down with me and said, ‘Will I be accepted in your church?’ I would say to them I will accept you, our staff would accept you, But I could not answer for the entire church. Now I can.” Indeed, the question was answered Sunday, when the congregation voted overwhelmingly to become an “open and affirming” church open to everyone regardless of sexual orientation, as well as age, race, gender, ethnicity, marital standing and other demographic markers. The church is now one of four United Church of Christ parishes in Rhode Island with similar policies toward homosexuality. Nationwide, that number stands at about 10 percent. Pastor Dan elaborated Tuesday from his office:
Do you consider this a bold move? “Our tradition has been one to take on these kinds of social issues. We were the first denomination to ordain women, persons of color, we took stands with the whole Amistad thing against slavery. It’s been in almost our theological DNA to be at the forefront of social justice issues.”
So why is the overall percentage of like-minded churches so low? “Because it’s very hard to do. And because of societal parochialisms about the issue, not every pastor is willing to put him or herself out there in that kind of way. It could be a divisive issue, depending on the congregation, depending on how it is handled. But this issue came from the people.”
Describe the two-year process to make this decision: “A congregational dialog needed to take place on this. We needed to talk about it because the way we’re organized, we vote on everything. The old Democratic model, the town hall meeting, came out of this congregational tradition. So we started a process.”
What process? “I preached on it, I had a sermon called ‘Homosexuality and the church.’ It was the only sermon I’ve ever preached in my life where there was applause when I finished. I had no idea that it would get that kind of a reception. Prior to that I had talked to our board of deacons and they had unanimously supported the idea of studying this issue.”
And then? “I went to many other churches that have this policy and talked to their pastors. What we did from September 2007 to this point was to hold several different forums that addressed the issue in different ways. We had one that we called “The human face of homosexuality.” We had another where we talked about the Bible and homosexuality. After all these the final forum was our actual statement that was crafted and presented to the congregation for review. After that we called for a congregational vote. That was Sunday, Nov. 2.”
Elaborate on the Bible’s teachings: “In the Bible to me there are about seven passages that deal with homosexual behavior. All of that behavior has nothing to do with a committed loving relationship. So the question becomes, what does that have to do with us today when Jesus didn’t really talk about it at all? Jesus reached out to the outcast, the oppressed, to the people in his day and age who were marginalized. We’ve chosen to look at it that way.”
Why is the Bible often cited by those who oppose homosexuality? “The Bible has been used to condone slavery, to segregate women, to authorize war. When the Bible is used to divide people, there’s something that is inherently wrong about that.”
What are your personal thoughts? “I’ve sat by the bedside of men dying from AIDS, looking for their parents to come but they never show up. I’ve counseled teenagers who are suicidal because they know they’re gay but don’t know how to deal with it. I’ve seen that very real human face. When you baptize a baby, it’s not with an asterisk. It’s not saying, ‘If you come back to us and you discover that you’re gay, we’re going to shun you.’ We are going to love you. Our sexuality is something we discover. It’s not something we decide. I think it is a part of a continuum of what it means to be a human being. It’s not everyone but it’s part of it.
Tell us more about that original sermon: “I talked about a person I knew at Yale, in seminary, who was a really close friend. She was the type of person who got up every day to pray, worked on behalf of the homeless, and over time she came out to herself, her family and to some of us who were close friends, that she was gay. But she was a member of another denomination, and when they found out, they stopped her ordination process. I remember one time she was in the dining hall and she was crying and I went over and talked to her. I said, ‘I don’t know what it is to be gay, but if you’re gay I love you and accept you as you are. That’s when I knew I’d taken a stand, that it was the church that was wrong, in my opinion.”
Whatever happened to her? “She is now a pastor in the United Church of Christ.”
I have never read a more moving article concerning any organized religion and the issue of homosexuality. I left the church as a 16 year old child because I knew I was going to hell and the church had no place for me. I have been inspired to reach out to Pastor Dan and consider having a conversation about coming to a mass. I have never posted anything like this on the web or newspaper I am now 49 years old. Thank you for speaking out.
Finally, a church that is trying to be inclusive.Bravo!
Now... will you marry my boyfriend and I?
.....in time I hope.
I am straight but not narrow. Thanks for being the same.
Remarkable.
I am also "straight but not narrow". I think it is a wonderful thing to have a church accept gay couples, and embrace them into the fold. Everyone of us has the right to love, no matter what. So, notipical, you go for it! And reach out to Pastor Dan knowing that you have a bunch more supporters than you know from us "straight and narrow" people.
I only have one child, and if that child had the courage to come to me and say that he/she was gay, I would still embrace that child, and love that child with all my heart.
So would God, without question.
Heart warming and life affirming
Dear peterpan......YES! You can be married at our Unitarian Church, not someday, now.
Just to clarify the article. It is not recorded that Jesus spoke about homosexuality because His message was mainly addressed to the Jewish community where homosexuality was already prohibited. For Jews, talking against homosexuality was not an issue. Homosexuality is spoken in the Bible by Paul because he was sent to the "non-jewish" communities, or gentiles, where homosexualism was a common practice. The first time Paul talks about homosexuality is in the book of Romans, the book written for the christian community at Rome. He also speaks about it in the book for the Corinthians. However, we as christians are not called to say who is going to hell or who is not, that's Gods job.
I am a "straight but not narrow" human being as well. I was moved by the pastor's humility and warmth toward those who are gay and who spend their lives suffering the slings and arrows from the small minded and self-hating among us. I don't believe in God. I have no personal use for religion, but I applaud the few religious leaders who embrace the more compassionate teachings of their faith. It's very refreshing to see this in my own community! What a pleasant surprise. Thank you.
I think it's remarkable (and gratifying) that all the comments on this article are tolerant as opposed to intolerant. It looks like society is changing for the better.
Accept gays into the church: yes, as every sin is equal, so I cannot say I am any less of a sinner then they are. However, I fear this is a movement toward saying that homosexuality is not a sin, and for these churches to give "God's blessing" to homosexual marriages, which I find appalling. I love the homosexual, but do not expect me to condone or accept the behavior as morally OK.
My husband and I were married in this church in 2003 by an interim pastor. We really found them to be very warm, and inclusive. I was raised as a Catholic but never felt connected to the religion. Because of our experience at this UCC church in Bristol, we've joined a church here in our new adopted city of Atlanta, also an Open and Affirming UCC church. As a matter of fact, I'm on the board of trustees! It is so gratifying to see so many open minds. Thank you, Pastor Dan and First UCC Bristol!
Kudos! What a wonderful article. As a gay guy who fled the area 6 days after turning 18 it's great to see 14 years later that the community is opening its mind and hearts. It's really important for young and old local gays to see more support so they don't feel isolated and ashamed. I also think it helps build support for allies in the straight world too. Keep up the great work!
If god wanted us to be Gay...we would only have one sex....either male or female...fool yourselves now...when judgment day arrive's...we'll see what the man upstairs thinks of this sick and twisted idealism these folk's have...it is not natural...this church is not helping...
How sad it is when people like goodfella speak for God with such anger. The hate seeping out is so sad to see. I am of the straight but not narrow category, and I applaud this church for taking a stand. Bristol needs a house of worship that is truly loving, tolerant and lives what Christ taught us. Thank you, First Congregational Church!
I am deeply saddened that a church would promote such behavior. Those that would intentionally lead others to believe that behavior that is deviant from God's perfect ways, will surely invoke God's wrath...in this life and/or the next.
Repent! It is so horrible for anyone to be punished for eternity, in exchange for a life time of un-natural sexuality. It's not too late to tell God you're sorry, and mean it.
I say this out of love for my fellow human beings...what kind of a rotten person would I be if I saw someone in danger and didn't warn them?
Gimmee a break!
This church isn't "promoting" homosexuality. It is promoting acceptance and love. God's core values. I'm as straight as they come but when I read the 10 commandments it's pretty clear what the rules are.
There is no 11th commandment that says thou shalt not be gay.
People like you can twist the bible to support whatever agenda or personal bias you have at that moment.
Another thing, with words like "repent!, wrath, un-natural" you pretend to be a judge therefore above your fellow man or woman instead of god. Which puts you in violation of Commandment number 1 and 2 "I am the lord your god. You shall have no gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol." and "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God"
So get over yourself. And clean up your own back step before you look at anyone elses.
In order to be considered unnatural one would need to acknowledge that the term unnatural is defined as not occurring in nature. Homosexuality has occurred in nature since the beginning of time, obviously if it was enough to be commented on in the Bible. It even occurs in other life forms in nature. Therefore, it is not unnatural.Iustitia's comments do not sound loving if she has just called me deviant yet she does not even know me. The church mentioned in the article is not promoting anything, simply welcoming a historically discriminated group of people,if not hated, to worship at their church. I'm sure Iustitia would say she "tolerates" gays as she condemns them. You tolerate a bad smell, not people who don't share your opinion.I don't have a "choice" in being gay. If you are more inclined to be attracted to men as opposed to women, you can't just wake up one day and "decide" to be attracted to women. If that were possible than I could "choose" to be straight if I wanted to be.With that logic, Iustiatia, do this for me, "choose" to be gay.
You can't can you?
I am deeply saddened that a church would promote such behavior.
Those that would intentionally lead others to believe that behavior that is deviant from God's perfect ways, will surely invoke God's wrath...
It's not too late to tell God you're sorry, and mean it.
.................I'll bet you can channel such deep rooted sadness into something God-approved for you both in this life and the afterlife for an appropriate repentence for your hypocritical post.
Don't forget, God holds an across the board policy for all sinners and I am hardpressed to believe your entirely free from sin yourself- none of us are.
It's not to late for you to repent for your harsh judgements, especially since your own policy on sinning seems to be compromised since your not out there breastbeating over the sins of the religious powers that be who condone pedophilic behavior by men of the cloth with their silence.
Iustitia, your screen name means justice and fairness but your comments are the exact opposite. Is this dichotomy supposed to be a joke?
It is those that preach the hate that are afraid of what they are hiding from themselves and others.
Ok. So if one were to accept your twisted logic, there should be no problem with being "open and affirming" to avowed pedophiles (although Jesus speaks out against that in the Bible too), or practitioners of bestiality (once again, condemned), or anything under the sun because one claims, "I was born that way".
I'm not judging or condemning...God is. Take it up with Him.
I have nothing but love for all of God's creatures. It's the sinful behaviors that a Believer should despise. Even one's own sins should be shameful because they are contrary to God's will.
Pray for understanding and be not deceived.
A gay person and a pedophile should not even be compared. A child that is molested is not a consenting adult. Don't even put that in the same category. Jesus speaks out against alot in the bible, many things that his own followers do. Aren't we all forgiven? If God can forgive the sins of murderers, I'm sure he'll let a gay person or two into heaven. There are much more bigger issues in life than a church that holds their arms open to everyone, regardless of whom they are. The way that we should all be. The color of skin shouldn't matter, religion shouldn't matter, ethnicity shouldn't matter, sexual preferance should not matter. In the end we are all humans, who have feelings and a right to live our own lives the way we seem fit.
Evileye, you're missing the point, my friend.
ALL sins are equal in the eyes of God. ALL sinners are welcomed in the Church, as none are without sin.
The dispute is with the Church saying that homosexuality isn't a sin, when God clearly says that it is. Why preferential treatment for a particular sin?
Also, isn't pedophilia a behavior and some claim to be born that way, as do most homosexuals?
Characteristic such as skin color, cannot be equated with behavior. Apples and oranges.
Folks,
Do not be deceived by the arrogant rantings of people with names like, IvanaHumpalot". This person obviously has an agenda and cannot follow what the topic/article is about. This person says, quote "Who cares what your church and your religion thinks?"
The article is about the church and homosexuality...duh. Live your life as you see fit, and let God be the Judge.
Doesn't mean that I personally dislike you as a human being, but I will NOT agree that using your sexual organ to violate an orifice that was clearly designed to dispose of waste is OK in God's eyes. FAIL!
Americans , this country was founded on Cristian beliefs. We no longer trust in God , we no longer pledge allegiance to our flag , people look down on " Holy Rollers " .As christians we are to pray for all sinners , being a sinner ourselves . If you had drug addiction , or were a murderer we should pray for you ,but if you were to become members of a church you should repent from your sins . A church is to lead by example. We are Christians we beleive in Jesus Christ our lord and savior he died on the cross for our sins.......not only is America forgeting that......but now fellow Christians too ??????
Ok. So if one were to accept your twisted logic, there should be no problem with being "open and affirming" to avowed pedophiles
................Not really-I was pointing out your hypocrisy. Are you free from sin, pre-marital sex and all? No answer required-your sexuality is *your business and not for me to judge on.
deli 1288 writes:
Americans , this country was founded on Christian beliefs we no longer trust in God , we no longer pledge allegiance to our flag , people look down on " Holy Rollers "
............Speak for yourself- I love Holy Rollers because they tip the scale on the morality-o-meter. Their extreme ways positively distributes an extra dose of values like an immunoglobulin for the morally challenged.
Who can argue that value?
Although I disagree with everything Iustitia says, it fortifies me there is someone like him/her in the 21st century to spread the gospel. Takes some pressure off me to be perfect.
obviously religion will always be a huge "clash of the titans" in our world . Look at 9/11 the radicals did that in beleif their god will bless them . If you are a Priest or a Pastor or a deacon of a church your job is to spread the truth or the bible . Openly allowing a person to be Gay and that is o.k. is like a police officer watching a pedofile do his thing and being o.k. with it. SORRY! I am not perfect , I do have morals and ethics , do you webmommy ,or should we say webdaddy you pick as far as you are concerned no problem . I have to explain to my three kids how two mommies have a child with each other . society what a mess
Iustitia- I did not miss your point, I completely understand where you are coming from, it's your view and belief. I can respect that. Would you be friends with a homosexual person? I think people are getting the idea that you hate them. As far as once again comparing a pervert to a gay person I don't agree with it. I know of quite a few people that as children they ALWAYS had the opposite sex tendencies. Today they are "out". We all called it back in grade school, a Catholic school. A little girl that I know, wants to be a boy. She wants nothing to do with girl things and tries desperately to have her mom dress her in boy clothes. She was born like that, right down to her boyish stagger. What would you do if that was your child? Force them to be something that they're not? Drill into them that they will suffer in hell?
Openly allowing a person to be Gay and that is o.k. is like a police officer watching a pedofile do his thing and being o.k. with it.
I do have morals and ethics , do you webmommy ,or should we say webdaddy you pick as far as you are concerned no problem .
I have to explain to my three kids how two mommies have a child with each other . society what a mess
....................It's Webmommy, and yes, I have a strong moral code that doesn't include judging others or fretfully wringing my hands over how to 'explain'to my kids how two mommies have children. It's pretty plain and simple although I surmise you'll be faced with an equally cataclysmic situation when you try to explain adoption or chinese vs thai to them as well. Best of luck.
Iustitia, your comment:
Doesn't mean that I personally dislike you as a human being, but I will NOT agree that using your sexual organ to violate an orifice that was clearly designed to dispose of waste is OK in God's eyes. FAIL!
Do you object to the person or the act? Gay men and straight men have both been know to engage in this particular sexual act. I have straight friends, whom have confided in me, that they have on more than one occasion performed this sexual act .Lesbians are incapable of it based on lack of mechanics. Are they than o.k.?
Relating gay men and lesbians to pedophiles is not remotely close in comparison.First, pedophiles are victimizing an unwilling or innocent person,in essence rape. Gay sex is consensual. You fail to recognize that a "gay experience" may also be a one time thing. Some people at one end of the spectrum try it once or on infrequent occasions and others know this is what they want. Being married does not make you straight either ,I can ASSURE you,as I have met and had relations with a married man or two......o.k., more than two, but who's counting.
And Deli1288, your comment:Openly allowing a person to be Gay and that is o.k. is like a police officer watching a pedofile do his thing and being o.k. with it. SORRY! I am not perfect , I do have morals and ethics , do you webmommy ,or should we say webdaddy you pick as far as you are concerned no problem .
Not only do you have a syntax problem (inability to form a logical sentence) but,based on your statement, in your ideal world gay people would not be allowed to be open and honest about their feelings.Do you feel it is a criminal act to be openly gay? Should denial and living a lie be preferred? I know many people who took this route, got married , had kids only to have their world (as well as their familys) fall apart when they were truthful about their feelings.I'm not saying that getting involved in a relationship with a woman was right or wrong, but for gay men,fighting a desire or feeling that is natural is preferred in order to accommodate ideals which are expected in society ie: get married, have kids,etc.
If it was as easy as making a choice to switch from gay to straight than why, with all the gay people in the world, hasn't one person come forward as the reformed gay spokesman. Why would I , a gay man, choose to live with discrimination and outright hate from others if I didn't have to. Don't you think I would have would have switch teams?
I am not self loathing, insecure, lacking a "father figure",etc. I grew up in a normal home without external influences to steer me toward being gay. I am straighter than some of my straight friends, work in construction and do not look or act like a "typical gay man".Your comments are offensive and lack substance other than what you have been told.Condemnation is easy to dispense when you lack a relevant point of view.
peterpan---Thank you for the well-articulate, and non-confrontational response. It is not the person I object to, but the act.
As this discussion pertains to the church and homosexuality, I will adhere to that alone, rather than make comparative behavioral analyzes.
The Greek word for church is "ekklesia" = that which is called out. Separate from the unbelievers. A body of his human creation of which He is the head. God, not the Pastor, Priest, Rabbi, etc. They are merely stewards of the flock. "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues" (1 Corinthians 12: 28).
The guidebook, or users manual, if you will, is of course the Bible.
Psalm 12:6-7 says, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Then we read in Psalm 100:5 that ". . . . his truth endureth to all generations," and Jesus said in John 17:17 that God's WORD is truth.
That being said, let's get back to the subject at hand.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9) Here, homosexual offenders are named amongst the wicked. Again, it;s the behavior, not the Creation.
"Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were SINNING GREATLY against the Lord." (Genesis 13:13) We know that this provoked God to such great wrath, that He destroyed the entire city,and the city next to it, Gomorrah. Other sins of Sodom are listed in Scripture, but this is the one that the Bible features as their great sin — the one that incurred God's wrath against their city.It's a non-brainer at this point that God reviles homosexuality.
"The WRATH OF GOD is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.... [24] Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the DEGRADING of their bodies with one another. [25] They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen. [26] Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for UNNATURAL ones. [27] In the same way the MEN ALSO ABANDONED NATURAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN AND WERE INFLAMED WITH LUST FOR ONE ANOTHER. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their PERVERSION. [28] Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done...."(Romans 1:18, 24-28) The are the words of God, not to be twisted by men, if one wishes for truth.
As for the Pastor, he may be in the MOST hot water, as leading the flock astray and warping the truth of the Word, thus potentially damning souls who believe, at his approval, that they are not sinning, and therefore do not repent. Pastor Dan Randall and congregant voters who approved of this are welcoming gays alright....welcoming them right to the gates of Hell! "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."(Romans 1:32) Those who approve of, condone, support, or turn a blind eye, taking the "none of my business" approach, deserve death as well according to Romans 1:32.
The good news is that there is hope! Be not be deceived by false teachers and wicked flocks! "And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:11)
The pastor can't get you into Heaven, only Jesus. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
Iustitia,
You must be a very hurt and angry person, to twist the bible into hate by picking and choosing verses. I wonder what happened to you along the way. I feel so sorry for you, truly. There is a church that would welcome and love you also, the folks at the First Congregational Church. Go there and be loved and heal your pain.
That is right on signal. Check around in her past - divorce, abuse, rejection all are there you can be sure. It is sad, and she does not speak for anyone but herself (and God I guess) I guess she forgot all those things in the bible about forgiving, loving, turning the other cheek, she is focused on the waste hole. Wonder if hell if full of people who condemn others to it. (Oh, yeah, I forgot, she has God on a cell phone in her own private, twisted call plan)
Iustitia,
Romans 1:32 reads:
"Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
This passage written by Paul was directed to the Gentiles. Jews during this period in history were forbidden to practice homosexuality, although I'm sure it did exist since homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time.Romans 1:32 states "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Thousands of years ago things were much different. If we are to interpret the scriptures as they read we would end up with a Mathew Sheppard incident (gay man tortured,tied to a fence and left to die) on every corner in every city on any given night. This is called a HATE CRIME in modern society. Do you condone this? As you interpret this passage, realize it it states death,or deserving of death, for being gay.
You also wrote: "As for the Pastor, he may be in the MOST hot water, as leading the flock astray and warping the truth of the Word, thus potentially damning souls who believe, at his approval, that they are not sinning, and therefore do not repent. Pastor Dan Randall and congregant voters who approved of this are welcoming gays alright....welcoming them right to the gates of Hell!
Should the Pastor then take down the Welcome sign, corral all the gays and lesbians in his sanctuary every Sunday and tell them to become straight , or, as you interpret, tell them they deserve to die? Accepting those who don't agree with your point of view for who they are is a sign of compassion, welcoming and socially much more evolved than some of the barbaric acts of moral judgment depicted in the Bible to get a point across. Like I said, things were different back then. We don't stone people in the streets anymore. If you interpret word for word you must accept it in its entirety.
By the way I am a Christian. I believe the Bible is the Word of God.
Interpretation of it not to be taken as literally as you, perhaps.
I believe Jesus died for my sins and have accepted him as my Savior. I also believe I am a beautiful creature created by God, Gay ,as God intended me to be. My life has been continually blessed over the years, contrary to what you may believe, I have not had a life of misery and pain.I don't struggle with my sexuality, its a non issue to me. I'm gay, so what? I don't wear it on my sleeve. It's a small percentage of who I am as a person. I do not know Pastor Dan nor have I been to his church. But its nice to know that if I did want to go to a church that accepted me for who I am I'd have one, without having to live a lie when I walked through the doors in order to accommodate a group of people who look down their noses at me in judgment.Kinda like the Pharisees. But even they knew the law had to be adjusted to reason and conscience and not obeyed blindly to the letter.
Your gay brother in Christ,
Peterpan
I sense my sister in Christ has chosen to ignore me rather than give a response.Well, I guess that is better than being tolerated. At least I know where I stand.
I certainly am not your sister in Christ, nor your brother. There is no argument, there is no debate. God's word is God's word. You must accept it or reject it.
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine,
receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
(2 John 1:9-11)
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9 )
Lovely. This last person chooses Biblical quotes which suit her/his needs while ignoring others which contadict her/his views. Especially: Love thy neighbor. Judge not lest ye be judged. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Each person, according to Jesus, is allowed to worship god in his or her own way, and should not be judged by others, yet, here you are acting as judge jury and god towarss this person simply because he is gay. the only one, according to the Christian faith, who can judge him is God. Not you, not me, not anyone. For you to condemn him with such vehemence shows that you have a complete lack of understanding in your own faith. A little soul searching might help you find what is missing in your life. Find it, and replace that hate you carry around like a club.
Iustitia says:
I certainly am not your sister in Christ, nor your brother. There is no argument, there is no debate. God's word is God's word. You must accept it or reject it.
How wonderful it must be to sit a the right had of God pontificating
responses that are not even your own but scriptures. Not only do you take responsibility for your insinuations but to say "God said, not me, I love all creatures" is ludicrous. Your pious remarks are the reason there are wars over religion. You are the reason people are turned off by "born again" christians. You give christians a bad name.
Your arrogance to proclaim I am not your brother in Christ because, basically, I'm gay , is audacious. Not one of your blogs shows ANY form of love or ability to comprehend anything that is not what you look up in your Bible concordance.If I proclaim to be a christian,who are you to tell me that not only am I not, but instead, that I am perverting the gospel by not believing exactly as you do? Your vile blogs have undoubtably turned off not only those you chastise but other christians and non-christians also. If you choose to hide behind scripture and re-site them from memory at least try to form an opinion that is not black and white. Nothing is Black and white. You can read the bible and memorize all the scriptures but this does not mean you have an opinion if all you do is re-site them on cue to fit your needs. It shows lack of intelligence.It shows you are not applying any thought in your responses. You should be ashamed of your comments and arrogant intolerance of others beliefs. I don't doubt that your keen ability to find the specs in others eyes allows you to be distracted from the forest of dead wood in your own.
Due to the number of views to this blog I would love to see what others think. If one persons states they agree, you may brush it off as "just an opinion". If majority agree- take the hint.
When you use the word Christian remember it refers to being Christ like,and Christ never spoke the way you have. He won people over with love, the complete opposite of what your comments have been about. RE-READ YOU BLOGS! HATE IS APPARENT EVERYWHERE IN THEM!
How wonderful it must be to sit a the right hand of God pontificating
responses that are not even your own but scriptures. Not only do you not take responsibility for your insinuations but to say "God said, not me, I love all creatures" is ludicrous.
I corrected my typos.....just in case Lady Justice couldn't read between the lines.
Iustitia-
It was wise of you to stop-you apparently forgot about Matthew 7:6.
It was kind of you to try but you must remember 2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
We are in such a time. Lucky for those that choose to follow their desires (natural or not) they have plenty of churches willing to serve up whatever pablum they want to hear. I was sure Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. All of us have desires-they could qualify as natural or unnatural. If my friend followed his desire to consume alcohol excessively, he would have remained an alcoholic. If I chose to follow my desire (quite natural, since birth, I assure you) to overeat, I would still be obese. I have another friend who has excessive lust for women, but for Christ would still be a sex addict. And yes, there are many that insist that their lust for children is quite "natural"and should be allowed. They also insist it is consensual. (Google NAMBLA) Believers are called to be holy (1Peter 1:16) and that does not mean we will be perfect or without sin, for that is impossible-but to live in a way that is clearly contrary to what is taught in Scripture is to place yourself in peril. They accuse you of twisting Scripture to support your opinion but that is no worse than ommitting Scripture to support theirs. I wondered how long it would take to play the Matthew Shepard card-it always comes up. Hate crimes are not acceptable in any platform, but why bring that up here? He was not murdered by Christians, so what does that have to do with anything? Nothing is black and white-really? Everything is relative I suppose. How is this for black and white? Every single one of you is going to die. Really. No subject to interpretation. This is true for every single person. All of this is really all a smokescreen for the really relevant issue which is the search for truth. Would ANYONE on this board truly want to know if you were in error? Particularly given the eternal consequences at stake, I would. That is why it is so important to study Scripture, preferably in the state as close to the orginal text as possible. I recommend bible.org to facilitate this along with a vibrant and active prayer life. God is not dead and is quite adept at revealing Scripture to those who belong to Him. If you thoroughly know Scripture then you will be equiped to defend your beliefs (whatever they are)"logically" without having to resort to name calling and ridiculous straw man arguments that are a mile wide but an inch deep. Since when does longevity make an argument for the validity of a lifestyle? Murder comes early on in Genesis-way before the other sins bandied about on this board. Does that make it okay-I mean it has been around since the beginning of time? God made man in His image and we've been returning the favor ever since! God is not shaped by our desires, we are shaped by His. We not only don't make the rules, we are not at liberty to change them to suit our needs and desires. The search for truth should be in exhaustible and ongoing. Would that everyone stop ranting and start some serious soul searching-today.
bristolyte;
Thank you for the mention of Matthew 7:6, and 2 Timothy 4:3. I have been edified by your post, Christian.
My duty has been fulfilled according to 2 Corinthians 5:20, and I will no longer cast my pearls before swine on this issue, here. The Word has been spoken. Amen.
well, you both seem to forget that you are indoctrinated into the same garbage you speak against. You hear and see what you wnat to see and you use "God" to justify your hate. 2000 years later, ther eis no way to know what the bible really says. You interpret it your way, but do not cast judgement on those who interpret it differently.
See, I do believe you are both women right? Well, in the bible, all women are property. So, how do you justify that? or do you ignore it? Also in the bible, the only true way to prove you love God is to shed all your eartly belongs and suffer. Have you done that? If not, you obviously are not true Christians. Have you sought out non-believers and stoned them for refusing to convert yet? If no, then you are not true Christians. Have you read the bible in it's entirety, in the original Assyrian language? No? Then you really have no idea what "God" has ordered and are just making it nup as you go along.
Iustitia/bristolyte,
You give Christians a bad name. You are both (maybe you are the same) show very hateful thinking. You may not post again (but I bet you will, under a new name) but your hate will linger on, only to be won over with love and peace, as Jesus truly taught. By the way, I think God loves you, too. Be healed people, and examine your hateful ways. You must be miserable inside.
I wondered how long it would take to play the Matthew Shepard card-it always comes up. Hate crimes are not acceptable in any platform, but why bring that up here? He was not murdered by Christians, so what does that have to do with anything?
Your comment bristolyte.
Mathew Shepard's name was mentioned because of the comment and "scripture" quoted by Iustitia:"Pastor Dan Randall and congregant voters who approved of this are welcoming gays alright....welcoming them right to the gates of Hell! "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."(Romans 1:32) Those who approve of, condone, support, or turn a blind eye, taking the "none of my business" approach, deserve death as well according to Romans 1:32."
Matthew Shepard was murdered by two straight men who intended to rob and assault him after all were patronizing a gay bar.Both men pleaded not guilty for their crime.Sure, thats what you do to someone after you rob them, you tie them to a fence and assault them till their dead. So,in your opinion, or as you say, God's,in this instance death was an agreeable outcome for Matthew Shepard.If I follow your twisted interpretation this is what I end up with. A gay man who finally got his comeuppance.
Also your statement: "All of us have desires-they could qualify as natural or unnatural. If my friend followed his desire to consume alcohol excessively, he would have remained an alcoholic. If I chose to follow my desire (quite natural, since birth, I assure you) to overeat, I would still be obese. I have another friend who has excessive lust for women, but for Christ would still be a sex addict. And yes, there are many that insist that their lust for children is quite "natural"and should be allowed. They also insist it is consensual.
The first three,inability to put down a bottle of booze, overeating and being a sex manic have more to do with self control. All three could be considered "masking" or avoiding other issues in life in order to escape reality or possibly numb ones self to it. The last one, the lust for children/consensual between both, well thats just a dumb overstated statement to try to prove your point.No one would think that is right,it is obviously pedophilia and not consensual. Even so,to try to help you understand what it is like to be gay, I will use the comparisons you gave. Try to look at it coldly and just TRY to understand the point of view, even in this not quite appropriate and overly simplistic exercise.
:If you don't give in to overeating or drinking or don't give in to compulsive sex the inclination or desire is still there, even though you are not actively engaged in the action or if you are suppressing it. Again, this is a quick oversimplified way of looking at it even though the things you mentioned are, in my opinion, more to deal with self control of those desires.We are made up of likes and dislikes.Because I am gay does not mean I am attracted to every man, just as straight men are not attracted to every woman and visa versa.Simply put, I like what I like because I do. Nothing more, nothing less.If you really, really like chocolate, and I said you should like vanilla from hear on out, can you switch what you like?No, unless you continually put negative connotations to chocolate and brainwashed yourself to believing you didn't like it. I have a feeling even after doing that you still would have some liking on some level to chocolate.
Both of you are not used to having intelligent debate. Offending comments should be backed by some form of factual evidence to support them." Speaking in scripture" is simply that, speaking in scripture, and does not allow the reader to grasp the humanity within your words."Because the bible says" can be used in many ways as indicated in the post by metaldoc. Dogmatic views will only divide and shun people away from experiencing true happiness with God.
Unfortunately, when I said I was a christian and called you sister/brother in Christ I got more condemnation.You deemed me not worthy to be "in the same group" as you.And, in fact, I was ostracized unless I agreed with you.Undoubtably, you feel heaven was not mean for christians like me(surely you doubt my salvation). I will pray you shed your feelings of intolerance for others as I feel your approach pushes people away rather than invite them to ask "how can I have the same happiness that this person has in his/her life?".
You would get more bees with honey than vinegar.
Iustitia/bristolyte,
You both seem to display some gross misinterpretations and lack of compassion for your neighbors.
First of all, do you know how it feels and how it affects today’s youth to go through their teen years, their toughest years, trying to suppress their feelings of who they are because they are terrified of ridicule and humility? I grew up Catholic, and in some ways, still hold on to Catholic values. Adolescence was hard enough. But imagine what its like being taught that I’m going to go to hell and burn in eternity for the feelings I was having that I had zero control over. What kind of toll do you think that takes on someone? How fair is that? I tried through high school to force myself to be attracted to the opposite sex. Do you know how that resulted? Failed relationships that left some pretty disappointed girlfriends. It wasn’t fair of me to use them to try to adapt my life to your norm. Can you even fathom the fact that a naked woman is as vile to me as one is to you? Not my choice at all. My life would have been hundreds of times easier if I were straight, but its not who I am, and I won’t fake being someone I’m not.
Today, at 27 years old, my partner and I have been together for 6 years. We are exclusive to each other. We don’t go out and prey on small boys, we don’t try to convert our neighbors and we don’t press our sexuality on anyone else but ourselves. We are involved in our community and have very strong family values. Are you trying to tell me that my relationship is less holy than some of these Hollywood shot gun weddings we see? Can you honestly say that Brittney Spears 30 hour marriage was more sanctified than my committed relationship where I am prevented that option? Am I really that unholy of a person? For years I’ve struggled with that, and today I can say with confidence that I am holy and doing what is right.
I find it very hard to categorize you and your ideologies with my God that I grew up with. I was always taught that Jesus Christ was put on earth to teach love and compassion. Not hate and segregation. If homosexuals were such an abomination as you believe, how can there be the volumes of men and women coming out today professing their homosexual identity? God can’t make that many mistakes. A few gay people are a mistake. Hundreds of thousands across the world is something different. You can say Pastor Randall’s salvation is at stake, but is he any worse than the group who protested Matthew Sheppard’s funeral holding up signs saying “God hates Fags” or “You deserve AIDS”. I hope you’re not categorizing yourself with his fanatical group. I believe their salvation is more at stake than my own.
Take a look at our own nation’s history. Pre-civil war, there were bills passed declaring a black person is only worth 3/5ths that of a white person. They were enslaved because of their skin color. Did they choose to be black? Did they have the option of changing themselves to white? For almost a century, they fought in our wars, paid taxes, couldn’t vote, and put up with the discrimination. Today, we are about to have a black president. Is Jesus flipping in his grave? I think not.
Women were destined to be housewives. Cook and clean or teach were their only roles. In bible times, they were property. Now we have secretary of defense Condoleeza Rice. Hilary Clinton ran for president. Is the world ending?
If we continued to resist change and oppress people who want to be equal and hold their heads up high, we’d be a third world nation today. I really doubt I, as a gay man, am going to cause the collapse of our nation.
The gay population isn’t asking for you to embrace them or their lifestyle. I respect your own lifestyle and wouldn’t push my own values on you. Why do you think you have the right to push yours on us then? We just want to live a life with respect and without humility to be who we are because this is how we were born. If you think I am still rotten after reading this, only your God can help you now.
Wow!
There is so much that requires a response here-where to begin? Perhaps with metaldoc-where on earth do you get the ridiculous assertion that ALL women are property in the Bible? What utter nonsense.
“Also in the bible, the only true way to prove you love God is to shed all your eartly belongs and suffer. Have you done that? If not, you obviously are not true Christians. Have you sought out non-believers and stoned them for refusing to convert yet? If no, then you are not true Christians.”
Again-where do you get this absolute nonsense?? Not in the Bible. Instead of throwing out trite concepts that are not even true, why don’t you reference your answers? The ONLY way to prove your love to God is to accept His son, Jesus Christ as Savior and make Him the Lord of your life. (John 14:6) Chester-you were taught wrong! (That should be a relief given the other things you were taught!) Jesus was NOT “put on this earth” to teach love and compassion. He was “put here” to die. For your sins and mine and anyone who accepts that outrageous, extravagant gift of forgiveness will be accepted into heaven. We are ALL unholy!! (Romans 3:10) Pretty crazy isn’t it? Heaven will be full of people who have committed some of the most heinous crimes yet sought Christ and repented of their sins and began a new life with Him-like the thief on the cross. Hell will contain some of the most “moral” and “good” people who thought if they just lived a “good” life, they would be worthy of heaven. That’s why it’s called “amazing” grace. Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. (I wasn't aware that Brittney Spears is a Christian and surely it does not seem she was overly concerned with "holy" matrimony. Probably not a good idea to use her as a standard-hopefully you could do better than that-it wouldn't be much of a stretch. But isn't your comment a little derogatory considering that she has been diagnosed as mentally ill-not very compassionate of you!)
FYI- I have read the Bible in its entirety-many times. Yes, in the original text. The Old Testament is actually written in Hebrew with a very few passages in Aramaic (Assyrian). The New Testament was written in Greek. Perhaps you should read it. Try bible.org as suggested in my original post.
I am not hateful and neither was my post no matter how you perceive it. By capable of having an intelligent debate is apparent that you mean that the only opinion that anyone is entitled to is yours-just label me hateful and intolerant and that settles it! For all the proclamation that you all are not “narrow”, it is more than clear that that you are only accepting of your own view whether it is truth or not. My point was that truth is far too valuable and the stakes too high to hold to any position or viewpoint because it suits our own personal agenda. When either you or I think we have cornered the market on truth, we are in the greatest peril. I don’t need to post under a different name as I have said nothing to be ashamed of. I was merely telling Iustitia to save her breath-it was a losing proposition to argue with people who only want to hear what they want to hear.
I have many, many beloved gay friends given my connections to the entertainment industry and they are frequently guests in my home and no, I don’t try to convert them (whatever that means-from being a homosexual or an unbeliever? Perhaps you mean both). The way I live my life speaks for itself so I have no need to justify it. I love what St. Francis of Assissi says, “Preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use words.” Again, “What does God require of you, but to do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:8) I am a nurse and have cared for people from all cultures and all walks of life with the deepest respect for their beliefs and heartfelt compassion, but in doing so, it does not mean I need to forfeit my own.
Women were destined to be housewives. Cook and clean or teach were their only roles. In bible times, they were property.
What sweeping generalizations you all like to throw out! There certainly were people in the Bible that viewed women as property but there were just as many who valued women-Jacob worked 14 years to earn Rachel’s hand in marriage and the first recorded appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ in Genesis was to an Egyptian slave girl. Check out the Proverbs 31 woman-quite a mover and shaker-not some cowering oppressed female. Priscilla in the book of Acts owned a business with her husband and was noted for her hospitality. No one did more to affirm the value of women than Christ himself. He had many female followers and He appeared first to women on Resurrection Day.
I am not “pushing” my values on anyone but certainly I am entitled to my beliefs whether or not you agree with them. As for being “hateful” you all should carefully reread your own posts. Talk about miserable and angry! Whoa! No joy there.
I realize this post is very long so I will leave you with this. My younger brother is gay and he has ALWAYS had the unconditional love and acceptance of our family. I realize that is not always the case and that is unfortunate but most of the time has nothing to do with true Christians. He is and always has been welcomed in my church. Eight and a half years ago he presented to the ER with hypoxia and severe Pneumocystis carinii. Yes, full blown AIDS-no he did not “deserve” it and no, he is not, nor has he ever been a pedophile. (Who are you people to presume what I believe from a few lines of text???) He was given 6 months to live due to the severity and complications involved. Our entire family was devastated and bereft. I can assure you the ONLY thing that got us through this was Jesus. His suffering has been unbearable and if I could, I would take his place-I cannot but we have walked this long journey together and praise be to God who is faithful and answers prayer, he is alive today with a barely perceptible viral load. Loving and caring for my brother is as natural for me as breathing regardless of his sexual preference. My beliefs are not determined by anything less than an intense relationship with God and prolonged study of His word. I am not in support of hate crimes against anyone nor would I align myself with any group who demonstrates such un-Christlike behavior like Westboro Baptist Church that pickets funerals. Not all who claim to be Christians really are. The Bible makes that abundantly clear. See Matthew 7:21 Jesus states that you will know a tree by its fruit-it is not by what people say, it is by what they do that counts. I encourage each one of you to study Scripture as if your life depended on it, for surely it does. Not just the “sound bytes”, the whole thing. Search for truth as you would search for gold. Again, if you were going down a road the wrong way, if you were truly in error, would you not want to know? I would. There is just too much at stake. The search for truth must be inexhaustible. Truth is not relative. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (John 8:32)
It doesn’t say my truth, or your truth, it says “the” truth. Shalom
Just to clarify here are passages that are from Leviticus,including the one that pertains to homosexuality.There are many reasons that could be used to explain and debate the context in which they were written. Basically, at one point we believe what we do when it makes sense intellectually and spiritually.
The book of Leviticus condemns a lot of things as "abominations." The 11th chapter is overflowing with abominations. For example, from verses 10-12:
"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)
"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)
"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)
So,no more Red Lobster and shrimp scampi?
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)
"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
And a favorite on this blog.....
"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)
"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)
and wearing clothes made from two different fabrics is an abomination as well...
"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)
I believe it also says if a woman who is having her period is walking down the street and a man is walking toward her, she has to cross the street and shout "unclean".
I think the problem here is when some would link their point of view to being "the truth", then ,on the other hand say its not my truth its Gods. This appears to be a way to validate ones point of view and make it "right" and make everyone else who has anything to to the contrary, suspect if not what God wants or says.
There are many ways to look at something. To make statements like "Again, if you were going down a road the wrong way, if you were truly in error, would you not want to know? I would." insinuates that you alone are so enlightened and everyone else is in the dark.Your opinion is just exactly that -AN OPINION! I cannot fathom how so much effort is put into being so negative.Condescending and really downright arrogant, this approach must make you feel smart and enlightened even amongst other Christians as is apparent on this blog.
And another thing, I am not the only gay person in my family. All my siblings are as well. Go figure. Not quite as "unnatural" as you might think.As pointed out in my earlier blog my childhood was normal in a normal home and we didn't find out about each other till later.Gee, that gay gene God created must have run strong in one of my parents. Put that in your pipe and smoke it next time your having "those gays in the entertainment industry"over for dinner.They may just be tolerating you as much as you tolerate them.
brist: The old Testament is written completely in Assyrian. it is a fact, Regardless of what your Catholic website tells you.
Bristol,
Yes, I agree that Jesus was put forth on this earth to die for our sins. But the bus doesn't stop there. He was also to spread the word of God, teach forgiveness, love, compassion and understanding. Please don't neglect information to give your argument any more validity.
Do you believe your brother is burning in hell because of his sins? Do you believe he was an abomination? Do you think he had a choice in his life style? You don't have to answer me, I know the answer. Try to convince your friend Iustitia. She may think otherwise.
I must say, and my apologies if I read your post wrong, but you almost seem to be hypocritcal in so much to post scripture as your proof of why homosexuality is wrong and that's your belief, yet confess your unconditional love and support for your brother. I find this confusing. Perhaps if you're inclined, you could further explain. I also never suggested you were hateful. Please re-read my post. I actually said you "seem to display some gross misinterpretations and lack of compassion for your neighbors."
"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:" Isaiah 29:12-13.
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9 )
Iustitia,
It's clear to both me, and anyone reading these posts, that religion plays an important part of your life and an integral part of who you are. That is how you've chosen to live your life and what makes you happy.
Now lets say, for sake of argument, this country was predominantly Islam, and you were a minority. Lets say that you were ridiculed for your beliefs, chastised for being who you are. You were humiliated for living your life as God made you.... because of your faith. How would you react if someone told you, you were less of person because of this? What would you tell them if someone told you you're life have no value, and you were destined to hell, because of who you are?
How am I any different?
"Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you" - Golden Rule, my rule.
Hope you and your family have a warm Holiday season and respect your neighbors without prejudice.
Crazy and sad.
And Iustitia posts again, as in my prophecy. Hate and more hate.
Chester-
If you read my posts and I don't think you have, since my brother is alive-so no, I don't think he is "burning in hell" and no "he" is not an abomination. He was created in the image of God, like me and you. Show me where I have posted ANY Scripture dealing with homosexuality. I haven't. Not one! Not even an honorable mention. You stated that Jesus was PUT on earth to teach compassion-I am not neglecting information to support my "position". His sole mission was to die for our sins-clear from the hundreds of messianic prophesies. You can learn forgiveness, love, and compassion from any number of sources-Buddha, Gandhi, even Oprah-but they did not die for you. Christianity is unique in that aspect alone. In other religions, humanity must "earn" their entrance into paradise. They all focus on man's performance. In Christianity God humiliated himself and became one of us and offered Himself as an atoning sacrifice-He did for us what we could NEVER do for ourselves. We ALL have a choice of how we live our lives. What is confusing to you? What do you need explained when my brother is fine with my beliefs. As are my gay friends. My beliefs are just that-mine. His beliefs are his. What can't be conveyed in a forum such as this is how one lives out their beliefs. I believe my brother is accepting of my beliefs because of the love, care, and acceptance he has found in me. He is not gay to me-he is my brother. My friends are my friends. My neighbors are my neighbors. As someone pointed out on the board earlier, sexual orientation is a very small part of who we all are. There are some who make it a definition of who they are. Chester you say that the gay population isn't asking me to embrace their lifestyle? Maybe not you personally-but what's up with Providence Gay Men's Chorus and the International Gay Rodeo Association? They are not "inclusive" by the way-heterosexuals or females are not allowed. What on earth does sexual preference have to do with singing or roping a steer? Do you see a Heterosexual Men's Chorus? It is that type of ridiculous trype that turns people off-even my gay friends! "Do unto others"Chester? How well do you think it would go over in town if I started a choral group for heterosexuals only? And you want to lecture on divisiveness?
metaldoc-I am not Catholic and have no idea why you would think that. I don't really think God is into denominations-there are only 2 types in the Bible-believer and unbeliever. I disagree with you on the Old Testament. There are transcripts in both but the most recent research holds the oldest texts are in Hebrew with rare verses in Aramaic. Is there any particular passage in "Assyrian" that conflicts with the same passage in Hebrew? I'd love to know what it is? No problem! Who cares? Read them both! Just read it! English is such a pale language-reading the text in different languages and translations enhances the study of Scripture.
peterpan-Old Testament Scripture served a very useful purpose at the time. Since you profess to be a Christian is it safe to say you realize that those were a part of the old Covenant that God had with the nation of Israel? God's spiritual presence dwelt among them (ark of the covenant, pillar of fire/smoke etc.) so attention to physical and personal cleanliness was exacting-I mean there even passages on mold and mildew. For us it certainly serves to demonstrate the absolute holiness of God-but we are under a new covenant (thank God!) I never claimed to be enlightened and truly I apologize if you find me arrogant-It was and is not intended to be-you misunderstand me completely. I have and still maintain that the search for truth is ongoing and needs to be exhaustive. I explicitly said when either you or I think we have cornered the market on truth, we are in the most peril-that does not sound like I think alone hold the keys to wisdom now does it? I have said if I am wrong I would want to know it as well-there is too much at stake. Again, I do not think "I know it all" The question was rhetorical not personally directed at you or anyone else personally. Your unkindness in your answer is unworthy of a "brother in Christ" as you described yourself. I don't "tolerate" my friends- I love them. They love me as well and your lack of compassion and understanding trivializes the difficult and painful issues here at hand. It is lucky for you that your parents were not gay as well or you would not be here. Natural or unnatural two men or two women cannot reproduce. This is a very difficult argument to overcome even if you leave God completely out of the issue. These are the questions I and others wrestle with. Just because we are still searching for answers does not make our opinions less valid than your own. This is not meant to be inflammatory at all so don't take it that way. I do not belittle your struggles with belief and I would ask that you don't belittle mine. I don't think most people are out to ignorant- I am not, but what I believe in my heart must also make sense in my head. This has been quite a learning curve as the angry and intolerant responses belie the professions of openness and acceptance. You are open and accepting of only those who believe what you believe and you provide no credible support for your own position. I found more support for your position just Googling than I have seen here. It has not changed my beliefs as of yet but as I have stated previously, I will continue to search for truth and wisdom always. Hopefully it will be given with more understanding and compassion than I have seen in this forum.
bristolyte-
Sorry for my grammatical error. I knew your brother was still with us. I meant to say "going to burn..." vice "burning". Sorry for the confusion.
Also, you did quote scripture in an earlier post:
"The ONLY way to prove your love to God is to accept His son, Jesus Christ as Savior and make Him the Lord of your life. (John 14:6) Chester-you were taught wrong! (That should be a relief given the other things you were taught!) Jesus was NOT “put on this earth” to teach love and compassion. He was “put here” to die. For your sins and mine and anyone who accepts that outrageous, extravagant gift of forgiveness will be accepted into heaven. We are ALL unholy!! (Romans 3:10) Pretty crazy isn’t it? Heaven will be full of people who have committed some of the most heinous crimes yet sought Christ and repented of their sins and began a new life with Him-like the thief on the cross. Hell will contain some of the most “moral” and “good” people who thought if they just lived a “good” life, they would be worthy of heaven. That’s why it’s called “amazing” grace. Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. "
Finally - I hadn't even heard of a gay chorus or rodeo. But I suppose the gay population has their fanatics like the Christians have Iustitia. There will always be the "in your face" people from any group. But by and hole, I wouldn't not stereotype the entire gay population based on a rodeo, or all Christians like Iustitia.
I agree with the lack of compassion in this forum in your last sentence. However, I can assure you that the majority of the compassion, or lack there of, came mainly from Iustitia. You've said your part, and I haven't said anything disrespectful to you or anyone else here. However, I still disagree with you on why Jesus was put on Earth. As I already agreed, twice in fact, yes Jesus was here to die for our sins, but I still profess that was not the sole reason. You can't teach a religion or compile followers just by dying and not saying/teaching/speaking anything. His primary role was to die for us. His secondary role was to spread the word, teach us forgiveness, love and compassion. I attended 8 years of catholic schooling. I was there for the lessons.
You're right, gay men and women cannot reproduce with each other. But there's a heck of a lot of orphaned kids born out of wedlock, given up by our moral leading heterosexual parents, or are there for tragic reasons that are looking to be adopted. The gene pool doesn't die when two gay people devote their lives to each other.
I suppose I've beaten this topic up as much as I can, so with that, hope your Holidays go well and your brother is healthy.
Chester-
"but you almost seem to be hypocritcal in so much to post scripture as your proof of why homosexuality is wrong"
I misunderstood you-yes, I posted Scripture but not in reference to homosexuality at all. Point taken that Jesus did many, many things while here on earth and I am in no way discounting or diminishing those things-they were simply astonishing! As always, I tend to focus on the uniqueness of Christ comparitive to other belief systems. I love what He did for me and for anyone who would call upon His name and it will show in nearly all I do or say because I cannot fathom it. Thank you for your kind wishes for myself and my brother. He is surprisingly robust at this time and back to work in the theatre, amazing audiences with his wonderful talent. May you and your partner celebrate the miracle of Christmas with hope and peace.
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I thought a little more about these gay rodeos and choruses. Has anyone stopped and thought WHY they are forming these gay exclusive groups/activities? I can assure you it’s not to stuff their agenda down your throat. Rather, it’s an activity they love where they are surrounding themselves with people who won't pass judgment on them, ridicule them or put them down. They choose to surround themselves with people who understand them so they can be themselves and be carefree and worry free while they are singing, or bull fighting, or whatever activity. What's so wrong with that?
I can see how this concept can be hard to grasp by people who are part of the mainstream and who are doing the finger pointing.
What's up with Curves gym for only women? You mean you don't want men hitting on you when you workout? You want a place to be comfortable and be yourself and be around other women? Huh, pretty interesting. How is this any different from a gay chorus?
"May you and your partner celebrate the miracle of Christmas with hope and peace. "
Many thanks bristolyte, and I'm refreshed to know how well your brother is doing.
It's possible Chester. But I've belonged to many different organizations and groups where sexual orientation was never brought up (and why should it?) and I know there were gay people that belonged to these groups as well. They seemed content and comfortable but of course that is only my perception. I can only speak from observation. I can honestly say other than an unfortunate incident reported in this paper of a woman harassing her gay neighbor (with AIDS, mind you), I have not personally witnessed any ridicule or harassment of a gay person. The Northeast is pretty liberal by all accounts. Not that it does not occur-I'm certain it does as does persecution of Christians, blacks, and many others. You say you can assure it's not to promote their agenda-how? It may be and it may be about comfort level or who is to say it is not a little of both? What about "gay pride" parades? How ridiculous would a heterosexual pride parade be? I am having trouble grasping the concept but I am not fingerpointing. I just find these activities divisive in nature-like I said they even offend some of my gay friends! I wouldn't have known about them either except for the fact that they brought them to my attention. I guess my friends and I share a similar view regarding our sexuality-it is only shared on a "need to know basis". It is simply irrelevant to those outside of our personal circle of friends, family, and coworkers. My best friend is a single woman with an adopted daughter of a different race. We are frequently mistaken as a couple-talk about stereotyping! (She has short hair and drives a Subaru) I feel absolutely no need to correct anyone's assumption in the matter ever! It is no one's business who I have or don't have sex with and I just don't get why it has to be a public issue-period. I am not ashamed to mistaken in such a way and also on the flip side of that I have never been treated unkindly or differently in these mistaken assumptions. It just seems so irrelevant most of the time and yet people want to give it prominence.
Bristolite, your comment.,"There are some who make it a definition of who they are. Chester you say that the gay population isn't asking me to embrace their lifestyle? Maybe not you personally-but what's up with Providence Gay Men's Chorus and the International Gay Rodeo Association? They are not "inclusive" by the way-heterosexuals or females are not allowed. What on earth does sexual preference have to do with singing or roping a steer? Do you see a Heterosexual Men's Chorus? It is that type of ridiculous trype that turns people off-even my gay friends! "Do unto others"Chester? How well do you think it would go over in town if I started a choral group for heterosexuals only? And you want to lecture on divisiveness?"
Its not a hard to understand concept. Its a club, an association, a group of people with a common interest. I have straight friends who have sung with the Gay Mens Chorus. Please don't look into it that deeply. The organizations don't have and agenda. Its just for fun and a platform for people with like common interests or affiliation.
Gay rodeo? Don't remember that in the church story. This is about the church story, right?
And on that note......
............I'm goin' to the gay rodeo!!!
YYYYYYYeeeeeeeeee hhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!
Maybe we could make it a church field trip !?!
Discuss.
