Laughable! Alan Funt must be hiding around the corner with his hidden camera.

This is so NOT art and sooooooo inappropriate! Our library is one of the last places of wisdom and serenity. This display does it an injustice. I am an artist and I would love to display my REAL art in the library. How does something like this get displayed as art! ! Obviously the drugs aren't working on this "artist." Shame,shame!

If this is art, then I'm the proud owner of the Vatican City Hooters franchise.

And you wonder why people are sick of the goverment funding the NEA here is a perfect example, perhaps a collection should be made to get this so called artist more help and the study of Da Vinci, It is obvious what even mental problems he has those meds are not working.

Jack

Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, sculpture, and paintings. (Wkipedia definition)

This does not seem designed to appeal but rather to provoke and shock-so in that regard I suppose it is successful. Just another one of those instances where they only people who admit to admiring such a display do so to appear "hip". I think it should be donated to all those folks who didn't have anything to put in their recycling bin and therefore can't get their trash picked up. Just sayin...

Jackkb,

I agree with you that the NEA has some pretty strange ideas about what deserves funding. As to the "artist" in the article, I think that studying DaVinci at this point in his development would be more than he can handle. Perhaps he could start by studying the work of C. M. Coolidge. The Dogs Playing Poker Series is more artistic and shows more talent than hanging used pill bottles on the wall.

Merry Christmas to all,

Clamgas

hey clamgas the dogs are classic art right up the with mono lisa I have a large cloth one in my music room to help sound proofing. Art and sound proofing product in one now the pratical and beautiful LOL

Jack

oh and good one bristolyte ROFLMAO

Jack

I'm heading straight over there with a bag of my bulldog's crap. Maybe I can even get a grant from the NEA, as long I can explain the profound meaning behind it. Idiots.

What a unique way to dispose of your recycling,I have some mike bottles and soup cans to add. Don't worry, I rinsed them,and put them in used sandwich bags. I'll bring my stapler.

ADD. ATTENTION DEFICIT DISORDER I have found in my life that Martial arts and meditation are the best cure. The meditation helps you to focus on a task. The Kick boxing a form of Kenpo karate teaches you to defend your self,gives you exercise and requires you to stay on task as you repeat the same katas over and over . No drugs or side affects except for sore muscles. The fact that I enjoyed it made me stay at it. I can't stand to see people on these medications. Modern medicine has to many side affects like becoming a zombie. My Grand Father started me at the PAL. in Fall River saying it was good for me. I think he knew it would help me in life,and it has.

Good to go, Jethro! Three cheers for common sense, and guidence from our fathers before us. Sucks that not every father/grandfather cared about theirs, as ours did us.

Ya think they'd display some angelic art, maybe a picture of the last supper. . . wooh.

All I can say is what happen to my Rhode Island? What the. . .

response to JohnnyUtah

To display anything christian in any public place in the country or in R.I. would immeadiatly draw the law suits of the ACLU since the one freedom the ACLU does not want people to have at all, is religion under the guise of seperation.

Jack

Jack; How true. I do find it interesting, your insight and critical thinking ability on the so called, 'seperation'. Especially, if I'm not mistaken, you not being of the Christian faith.

This almost universal misconception about the wall of seperation, has been instrumental in removing the mention of God in a public place, lest someone be offended.

UBut what's really strange is that while the haters of God do everything in their power to quash Christianity, they embrace and welcome other 'faiths', such as Islam, in the name of diversity. That despite their mass murder of 9/11.

Truly bizarre.

You are not mistaken, The Only religion I have a problem with is Islam, The fact that it is always denied as a violent religion by its followers in ridiculous. To say it is only a few fanatics well constantly keeping silent and never turning in these fanatics is ridiculous also. To continue to teach this violence in their religious schools and preach peace is ridiculous.

The Catholic Church and many other offshoots of it have evolved from their early violence toward non-believers and draconian rules on many things. Well Islam continues a tradition of intolerance teachings that are far from the tolerance they profess to follow. The fact that they still to this day will not make peace with any person not of their faith is proof that change is needed.

Will they probably not. If you do not speak out against violence in one voice by all of your faith then you condone it period. It has always been strange to me the hate allowed massively on Christians in this Country the land of freedom of religion. That all other religions seem protected from vile attacks but the Christians. The ACLU will never ever fight for anyone’s right to demean Islam or the Jewish faith.

Even though the first thing out of Islam is to Murder the perpetrators of any insult in the Name of the Same God they say that Christians follow. Either there is a forgiving God or a Murdering God the God can’t be both if it is believed to be the same God.

Isn’t it funny How Islam and the Jewish faith both have organization whose only mandate is to sue and protest against anything they consider is someone who is demeaning their faith or believers. Well the Christian value and belief of turn the other cheek would tend to violate the Christian Church itself forming these organizations they are fully supported with funds from Islam and the Jewish faith.

The people who continue to state that this Country is not founded on Christian values by Christian and in my opinion are morons to say that. It is a well know fact it is. The Constitution of this Country was Based on the 10 commandments and the Magna Carta, and the Great Creator to deny this is the same as denying that the Holocaust is a myth which is despicable in my book for anyone to do that or doubt the Founding on Christian values of this Republic.

The separation of Church and State was and always has been the mandate to prevent any one religion from being in control of the government or for the government to mandate any single religion over another period. It has nothing to do with A Christmas tree a crèche or any other Christian symbol or any religious symbols and nowhere does it say if you put up a cross or any religious symbol on public property it is illegal. These regulations and laws were created out of thin air with no backing in the constitution only the perceived opinions of the ACLU period.

So many people forget that the founding fathers almost all of them were Masons who first requirement to be in the organization is the belief of a Universal being not God not any religion just a Creator. This was the basis for freedom of religion and In this State the first Colony to be Founded on total freedom of religion because of what Roger Williams became disgusted with in the Massachusetts bay colony is it not very weird that it now has an ACLU that is so intolerant of any Christian values in the State and there is never a large outcry. That to me is weird the Christians in this state don’t scream to the high heavens about it.

Jack

Jack...excellent post. I will respond tomorrow w/ a proper response. Merry Christmas & good night.

Jackkb what parts of the constitution were formed or based on the ten commandments? I think you were also referring to the ADL and suing people. The ADl was formed in 1913 to combat the rising tide of anti-semitism. Unfortunately they failed in that mission and the result was the loss of nearly six milion people. If you want to form a group to keep Christians safe, then be my guest,but I really don't think that Christians have been persecuted and maligned in the same manner as the Jewish people. All that being said, enjoy your Christmas, enjoy the time spent with family and pray for peace.

You to have missed my point there rastabri I was talking about the current climate of the last 15 years of the atempts by the ACLU and others trying to stifle the Christian religion. I was also pointing out that Anti-defamation leagues and such are rarely put upon by the ACLU and these organizations who seem to be bent on removing only christian symbols from the light of day in every aspect of american life.

I am not talking about past atrocities and the persecution on jews there is no comparison to that today. I actually think the Christians should start doing the same things that Jews and Muslims do in this regard. I simply point to a growing movement that I see secularism today that seems to be singling out one religion only. As has been said many times it can't happen here but if just one individual is denied freedom all are denied freedom.

I have been to the holocaust museum in D.C. I have pictures of the camps from WW2 that my father took when freeing them. My Mothers family had to be smuggled from Lithuania to canada to escape Stalin before WW2. And she also is a war vet. of WW2. I see no reason for me to start a christian rights group though my family is christian I am not. I mearly point out somthing that is very curios to me in my readings and information gathering that I do to educate myself on current events and history.

Hope that Explains it for you. ;-}

Have a Merry Christmas your self and if you are Jewish as I have seen here before Happy Hanukkah to you and yours, Shalom.

Jack

P.S.

James Madison, Fourth President of these united States of America and the man who wrote the U.S. Constitution:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."

There also many other writing of the founders using the principles of the ten commandments in part to write the Constitution I just point out that these are also part of the foundation of this country as was Christian beliefs.

I should add that I do not like to discuss religion to much on a forum as it tends to bring out the worst in some people and since I am a very small and minor belief system I can't compete with the knowledge others have. Though I have spent a lot of time with many religions in my life, there are many who are much more learned to speak then me on it. Though I am more than capibal of debating any issue on it if a person doen't go postal on me for it. ;-}

Jack

You see JAckkb that's why I enjoy discussing things with you. You remain calm,cool, and collected. I don't think today is the day to discuss religion except to say Merry Christmas and pay for peace all over the world.

I would also add that I know you meant pray and not pay, but pray for our soldiers all over the world who pay the price for peace for over a century now no matter who the people or their beliefs they die for freedom of all. Thank God we have young men and women who do the right thing only because it is the right thing.

Amen to that.

Jack

Jack, perhaps you should study Jefferson, one of the main founders and writers of the constitution and bill of rights....who was a deist..... believed in reason, NOT IN A CHRISTIAN GOD AT ALL.

Ben Franklin was NEVER ASKED during his entire life about his real religion, but finally when old answered one lady in a letter saying HE DID NOT BELIEVE IN THE SANCTITY OF JESUS. FYI, that makes him not a Christian, I think.........

If you want direct links, I will give them to you. However, one would assume you know these things. The Creator is a whole different thing than a Christian God/Jesus, etc.

Get your facts straight and then come back and give your opinion!

Happy Holidays, BTW, everyone!

Here you go, Jack...

Ben Franklin answering a question by letter:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,

and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity"

Hmm, not only Ben but most of the present dissenters in England!

Jefferson was a bit harsher toward organized religion and also did not "buy" ANY of the miracle stuff of Catholicism, the Bible, etc....none of it. He believed in a God being "nature".....the natural order, reason, etc.

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

" I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." was his answer to the local priest and others who called him an infidel.

In other words, he saw " tyranny over the mind of man" as what organized Christianity represented. You can look at that any way you want.....but be assured The Pope was one of the people he was referring to......

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

I think Jefferson is pretty clear about the fact that a free people cannot be a "priest ridden" people....then or never.

First off craig you post the same stuff most athiest post only small excepts quote rather than the whole quote to get the context. I do not need the links I know where the whole quotes are.

And I talked of christian values which Franklin and All founding fathers had respect for used what ones they thought would be helpful to them. Almost all were masons and therefore believed in a creator as I said.

Like most who seem to detest religion in any form you bring up past activities of religion but never the good ones. You also never bring up the modernization and good changes of many religions. For every excerpt you post of these men of small statements taken out of context anyone could post the exact opposite and most case just posting the whole quote disputes your claims.

And finally you talk of priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government that has not one iota of anything I was talking to Rastabri about period. Not does anything your talking about have anything to do with my conversation.

I sujest you read a lot futher on Jefferson also and his and all the founders beliefs you are very mistaken with your typical talking points of the anti religious anything. Also come into the real world which is now not the past you can not have it both ways craig either you live in the here and now or you live in the past. The past id the answer to what should not be repaeated if it is decremental to the modern society in which we live, and conversly the past is helpful in the good things that have been done be used to evolve the mordern society to a more understanding way of life. I wrote that and it is what the founding fathers believed as far as all writings I have read in their entirety.

You cannot be so inconsistant to wish everyone a happy holiday on one hand and to lambast the belief of 70 to 80% of this country or what ever it is. The day I will remind you is Christmas not Happy Holiday, Or it is Happy Kwanza, or Happy Hanukkah etc. etc. etc. I have never read anywhere.

Nor have I heard of a religious or any other holiday called happy holiday. And as a Non Christian in the known sense of people in this day and age I at least respectfully wish them their respect to which the day is their belief period.

I may not be the smartest guy in the world nor am I the free of human failing in all aspects of life. But there is one this I know that is a Universal truth and that is that everyone is entitled to an opinon and everyone is entitled to a beleif of their own accord. You have yours and I have mine. But if your going to pick and chose what to post on a mans words try to be more acurate with the entire quote so as not to mislead.

Jack

P.S.

As to Jesus of Nazareth

, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

That my friend puts a whole different meaning on what you said of Franklin and his beliefs of the Christian religion and of God.

I would point out that he also put forth a resolution to open each of the Continental Congress well the debate on the Constitution was going on with a praying to God for guidence, though it was voted down at the time was his wish to do it in hopes of making the delagates be more reseptive to each other and civil rather than all the bickering that was upsetting him so much to get the work done.

Jack

Jackkb, you did the same to Islsm and Judiasm

as younsay Craig is doing with Christianity. You said he took

a small portion to villify the entire religion which is pretty much what you did with Islam and the ADL( judiasm). Then you tell him to get into modern times and stop quoting or referring to the past but ask us to read and relate to the founding fathers. You can't have it both ways. I would say judging by your typing that you are either typing while driving or have been tipping the eggnogs and Beck Darks. Happy Holidays Jackkb that refers to Christmas and New Years.

Jack, I did not post my words, only those of Franklin and Jefferson! If you don't like those, you have to take it up with them...not me.

Your post basically stated that the US was founded as a Christian Nation. It was not. It was founded as a secular nation.

As to "Christian Values", if you are talking about the many old time values that are the tenets of many religions, you must look to the Jewish faith first since it was established thousands of years before Christianity....which is why Jesus was a jew...and he never told anyone to give up that faith either. Christianity was not founded or made up by him, but by men.....much later on.

Of course MOSES, a jew, received the ten commandments that you so seem to esteem.

That was about 1500 years before Christ.

You said people who don't think this country was founded on Christian values and Christian faith were morons. That is a pretty strong statement when the ten commandments were received by a Jew......and the so-called Christian values existed for 1500+ years before Christ even showed up.

Now, if you want to go a little further back, you could say we were founded with Hindu values......what was that? Like 5000 years ago....

"If you injure another man, you injure yourself. If you help another person, you help yourself. There is one life, one common consciousness in all beings. This is the foundation of right conduct. This is the foundation of ethics."

Following a religion where other human beings tell you what to do (what jefferson referred to) will ALWAYS get you in trouble since people always seek power and control over others. Enlightened religions such as Buddhism and Judaism as well as certain Christian sects (Quakers, etc.) have evolved to base their ethics on this..that YOU know as much or more than any priest, pope, rabbi, etc.

That is what Jefferson is getting at. His faith (Deism) - says "religious truth can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion. Deists tend to, but do not necessarily, reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs"

This country was founded on the rights of man. The same rights of man, as in the Hindu quote above, are a common thread in all major religions - AND, outside of religion (in ethics and morality).

Claiming that these values are "owned" by one or another religion or group is as silly as those pols who want to convince you that they make the sun come up in the morning. Sorry, but I don't think they do..do you?

Happy Holidays all!

>That my friend puts a whole different meaning on what you said of Franklin and his beliefs of the Christian religion and of God.

Praying, meditating or saying that a system of morals that Jesus spoke are good ones have absolutely nothing to do with the basis of our government.

Heck, I think the Sermon on the Mount and such other passages are some of the finest statements of morality ever written.

That is far different than your claim about the founding of our country being as a Christian nation. If you wanted to go as far as your statement, you'd have to tell us what kind of Christians, since they differ vastly.

Actually rastabri my point again on islam is not about the religion itself I was only stating that the majority of the believers do not speak out agaist the few who have taken an extreme view and warped sense of the religion they say they believe in all these values but action do not reveal that to be true that is my only point on islam.

I know nothing I said to defame the ADL or jewish religion. When I was talking of the past founding fathers I was reffering to what was the founding tenents used to found this Country not what past actions by religiong did only the influence different religious views had on the founding of this country.

Perhaps I should have added Judao-Christian instead of just Christian but that is a minor thing since I would think most perople realize that Moses and Jesus and many others are considered either phofets or rabbi's or Dieties in the eyes of different branches of religions across the world.

My problem with craigs statement is it is typical retoric that the founder of this country were in fear of religion and that was far from the case. Well they were deffinatly against a religious controled government, the vast majority of the founders were either Christian or at the very least believed in a creator of the universe.

The teachings of jesus who by some religions is considered the son of god by others a rabbi an by others a prophet or seer or even just a fantasy. None of that has to do with what I was trying to say. I was only pointing out that this country is founded on the beliefs that the founding fathers had at the time period.

My point on modern times was that if religions do not evolve in to modern times and what is learned and then they stagnate and lose credibility. Allmost all religions have a long way to go in this some more than others, my view on islam being one that does have far to go and needs to evolve in my opinon.

I have never claimed that the values are owned a religion only that many different values were instumental in the writing of this countries laws and they were religious values that were taken from History. This my reasoning for saying it is moronic to state Christian values were not a driving force in the formation of this country.

It was not just one person or a few who did this it was many many people of the time of formation and whether people like craig belive it or not their values were Christian period or judao-Christian if you prefer. Either way thats the conclusion I have come to and so have millinions of others in this country.

What craig keeps trying to refer too realyhas nothing to do with my statement of the founding of this country only the personal views of statements made by some of them many of them after the founding of this country, could they have changed their views later on yep some did. But the fact remains that the orignial writings that became what is our Constituion and founding documents and based on religious values.

I would also point out that there are 2 different things here there is not a country of democracy, it is a republic with a democratic government and again as I have said before the seperation of church and state was to insure that the government would not be like the government of england at the time where the King was also the head of the church of england not the petty and silly scare tatics used in this country now to stop christian symbols from being displayed everywhere.

I will tell you what upset me so much about this was the attempt to have all crosses removed from graves on government land including Arlington Cemetary in Washington and that I will fight forever. It is out of hand and once you do it to one you do it to all and though Government is secular as the founders did like craig says the republic is not and even then the will of the people is still the paramount factor in anything.

To use false arguments and legal hammers like the ACLU does is also out of hand and they are far from standing up for the rights of people. They only stand up for what will get them money period. Their mandate of freedom was lost long ago in my opinon.

Jack

Oh and rastabri I thought my typing was pretty good this time geeze.

;-}

Jack

Also it is extremely amusing that this is all in post concerning med bottle that a guy used to pratice using his vacuum sealer. LOL

"the devil's advocate has struck again" LOL

Jack

P.S. I never liked egg nog rastabri.

Jack

Jackkb i was only joking about the typing, my skills are questionable as well and egg nog us some nasty stuff. For the most part i would agree with you about Islam, it has been hijacked by extremists and the good don't speak loud enough. But there are many millions of Muslims and most are peaceful innocent people.

You know after rereading my first post on this craig I never said anything about a christian god.

So many people forget that the founding fathers almost all of them were Masons who first requirement to be in the organization is the belief of a Universal being not God not any religion just a Creator. This was the basis for freedom of religion and In this State the first Colony to be Founded on total freedom of religion because of what Roger Williams became disgusted with in the Massachusetts bay colony is it not very weird that it now has an ACLU that is so intolerant of any Christian values in the State and there is never a large outcry. That to me is weird the Christians in this state don’t scream to the high heavens about it.

Jack

response to Rastabri

I will also say that well I am far from an expert on any religion or belief system anyone has and I'm sure I misconstrue things at time not being able to get my thought across like I would prefer to do, It is allways easyer to do with conversation than typing because after you type and post then you suddenly see it and say oops not the way I wanted to say it, being an imperfect human as all are thats the way it goes.

Having said that if you ever want to have a Beer and food let me know I think we could have some interesting banter together in person. LOL

Jack

Also rastabri I agree with you rlast post I am not happy with the Catholic Church's Jewish action in WW2 not speaking out then. The did finally appoligize but it amazed me how long it took and even in this country at the time there really wasnt much concern about it tell it was realized to be a holacaust and the pictured came out. Sad but it did happen and people sometimes hide their head in the sand. I hope it was a sad lesson we learned from. I think we have here but elsewhere not so it seems.

I agree on the muslims that is my whole point on the about the speaking out.

Jack

A few years ago I took the tour with Keith Stokes in Newport. As you take this tour you learn about the numerous churches, and Touro Synagogue. This tour explains that people of all and no religious believes took part in the creation of this City, and the island then called Rhode Island. They knew if the colony was going to prosper they had to get along and put there believes aside for this purpose . They founded a city that welcomed all regardless of there Faith. This proved to be the right thing because the city became a port and a market for goods. They did not give up there religions as seen by the many places that people can practice there religious believes, even today in the city. They got it done for the good of there families and fellow citizens. I'm sure they argued about Religion back then too,but they still worked and played together. That is civilization, and what makes this country great.

Use to work at Touro Synagogue when I was 10 I worked for 3 days a week for 3 hours each day cleaning and polishing every thing.

Got a dollar day which went to Bazooka gum and nickle Pinball LOL.

It is the first Synagogue built in America I believe it was 1741 and it is really beautiful inside. Use to read the tora all the time to which was interesting however can't remember a thing now for the most part. Did like wearing the beenie cap yamaka but wished it had a propeller on it like my Beanie & Cecil hat LOL.

Jack

Hah, Jethro - you know the history of RI is about praying to MONEY....trade, that is!

That is one of the reasons that Jews were so well accepted there - and also folks who did not practice any religion. Rhode Islanders were very practical and logical - and, in fact, founded the state to GET AWAY from the crazy preachers of Ma. (witch burning, etc. Cotton Mathers, etc.).....

In any case, to state the case clearly - this country was discovered in a quest for trade and money, and then became a refuge for those running FROM forced religious doctrines as well as those who wanted to get wealthy from a setup where there were unlimited resources, etc.

It so happened in the course of history that most Europeans at the time were of various Christian faiths.

However, this was never founded as Christian nation and theology should play no part in our government.....IMHO.

If nothing else, Fundamentalist Islam should make it clear how mixing government with church ends up........nowhere! Since we dealt with that hundreds of years ago, let's not rewrite history. Back before we knew better it was OK to think that God was up above the clouds. We know better now...hopefully.

Geeze nice sterotype on the Jews there craigimass, I dont see where it was said as a Christian nation only on Christian values. You seem to have a lot hate and grudges against religion of others. One would think you would just let them worship their own way. I don't see them trying to take over the goverment of this Country as you seem to imply but hey if that your view is your right to believe it but I disagree with that.

Jack

Art has a monetary value. So folks, what is the value of this exhibit, or should I say exhibition. I suspect that after it is removed it will be placed in the trash. Perhaps it should have been called a self portrait.

Might be worth 1/1,000,000 of a penny for the recyled plastic I guess. They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure don't see what is to behold here or any beauty I can fathom. LOL

Jack

Hey, first of all they laughed at Warhols campell soup cans too!

I assume none of you are avante garde art critics.

Secondly, and unfortunately, medicine bottles are a vast part of our modern culture - so that does express something.

We can't critique EVERYTHING we don't understand. Heck, you could show me a 10 million dollar masterpiece at a flea market and I would not pay $30 for it.